r/dataisbeautiful OC: 3 Oct 14 '21 Silver 5 Gold 1 Helpful 4 Wholesome 3 Hugz 4 Take My Energy 1

[OC] Minimum travel time from Paris by train & bike and comparison to car OC

13.7k Upvotes

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1.5k

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/UncleSnowstorm Oct 14 '21

But then not too far from Marseilles you have 8-12h times.

So it takes three hours to get from Paris to Marseilles, and then 5 hours to get from Marseilles to towns not that far away.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '21

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u/oiseauvert989 Oct 14 '21

The Alps will complicate anything yeh.

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u/thomasutra Oct 14 '21

Unless your name is Hannibal

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/Calencre Oct 14 '21

I don't think my elephant fits on the train

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u/drewski3420 Oct 14 '21

Other way around

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u/marcx88 Oct 14 '21

uᴉɐɹʇ ǝɥʇ uo sʇᴉɟ ʇuɐɥdǝlǝ ʎɯ ʞuᴉɥʇ ʇ,uop I

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u/demonTutu Oct 14 '21

I think we ought to have a map that features travel by elephant.

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u/ih8spalling Oct 14 '21

Travel time from Paris via elephant

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u/planetofthemushrooms Oct 14 '21

Dynamite could make it easier

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u/oiseauvert989 Oct 14 '21

Explosives and tunnels are used but even with all that expense, the last mile to a vaillage in the mountains will always be slow.

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u/LordArrowhead Oct 14 '21

Not if you use jetpacks!

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u/oiseauvert989 Oct 14 '21

Haha that would be incredibly expensive but i admit it would be fast.

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u/Ukabe Oct 14 '21

Yes, just destruct the villages in the Alps so we don't need to get there anymore ; problem solved. I'll vote for you!

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u/MadameBlueJay Oct 14 '21

Just push them somewhere else

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u/ChugLaguna Oct 14 '21

The towns have been towed outside the Alps

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u/TopIane Oct 14 '21

Into another environment?

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u/dbdr Oct 14 '21

No, outside the environment.

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u/anally_ExpressUrself Oct 14 '21

That's big brain thinking

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u/ObfuscatedAnswers Oct 14 '21

Dynamite has a way of complicating things as well...

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u/Nuclear_rabbit OC: 1 Oct 14 '21

They could just have good bus service, but it's not represented in these maps. It would be an option available with a bike, but wasn't part of calculation here.

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u/oiseauvert989 Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

Those are mostly places with no rail station. The big ones are of course the Alps and the Massif Central. The little one of the coast is Saint Tropez.

Realistically Parisians would get the train to the nearest station and then hire a car there which would allow for a 6-7 hour journey.

Source: Planning a similar journey at the end of the month.

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u/Superpetros17 Oct 14 '21

On the railway between Marseille and Nice (on the shore, close to the border with Italy) trains cannot go to their usual high speed, and go a bit faster but with a lot of more stops, so Marseille-Nice is a little faster by car. (This is kinda the same thing near bordeaux). By train their is usualy only one or two stop between Paris and Marseille, but somewhere like 7-8 between Marseille and Nice.
And the green south-east is basically the alps, so both quite slow by train (if there are) and car.

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u/Jamil20 Oct 14 '21

It's great if you're starting from Paris. I tried to take a train from Bordeaux to Lyon, and it was 5 hours by train.

First, you had to go to Paris, while there, change train stations to another one that is 20 minutes away by taxi, then hop on the train to take you to your final destination.

It's also 5 hours by car, but a lot cheaper to rent than the train tickets and no stress about making a connection. Mostly want to say that for high-speed, it will take you through Paris, which can be a huge detour.

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u/v161l473c4n15l0r3m Oct 14 '21

Yeah, that was like wait…what?

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u/oiseauvert989 Oct 14 '21

The Paris to Marseille train averages roughly 250km/h (150mph). The car averages 110km/h (70mph) between the cities with an even lower speed for the first few miles in Paris and the last few miles to the centre of Marseille.

There really is no competition between the two for a long distance between cities.

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u/Yaboi-LemonBochme Oct 14 '21

Trains go that fast???

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u/RandomName01 Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

I took the TGV from Lille to Lyon a couple of weeks ago, it goes up to 300 km/h and it’s silent as well as super smooth.

Trains are really cool, and should be a part of any country’s transportation mix, along with other forms of public transportation. It’s a shame cars are prioritised in many countries, since they’re super bad in a lot of ways.

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u/RandomName01 Oct 14 '21

I wrote up this reply to someone who said that Canada was too sparse and that planes were more pragmatic for long distance, but then deleted their reply. I still think it has some value, so here you go;

Planes should become massively more expensive, since you don’t come close to paying for how much it pollutes. That would level the playing field for a lot of semi long-distance journeys.

And yeah, I’m not saying trains are perfect for every situation, but I know Canada has a couple of cities with a pretty large population, where trams or subways are either in place or could massively help. Combining those with affordable high speed trains would massively reduce car use and car dependency, even if the car would still have its use cases.

By the way, there are still publicly funded roads in those sparsely populated areas, right? Those also cost a lot of money per user, but I don’t hear you talking about that.

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u/stelei Oct 14 '21

There's been talk about a high-speed train line in the Quebec-Windsor corridor for decades now. But of course, the political will to embark on such a transformative project is nonexistent.

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u/wjandrea Oct 14 '21

Hey, sorry for deleting my reply, but I realized after posting it that I wasn't sure what position I was arguing. I'm generally in favour of less cars, but I guess my point was that trains aren't a good solution for long-distance travel in Canada. Although, Canadian cities are generally pretty good at non-car transport, including commuter rail.

Myself, I've done a cross-Canada trip by rail, and I was bored stupid on the three days (!) from Toronto to Jasper. If I had flown, it would've been three hours.

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u/RandomName01 Oct 14 '21

I get that. What I’d love to see is a good high speed train from east to west, which would be a little under 5000 km, which would take about 20 hours from Québec to Vancouver.

Sure, flying would still be faster, but train would be a legitimate option.

Also, small note about flying: if the flight takes 3 hours, your actual travel time (including getting to the airport, checking in, waiting for your luggage, …) would probably be closer to 6 hours. On the train you can just get in.

Small note btw: I didn’t mean to call you out, I just wanted to give context for my comment.

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u/wjandrea Oct 14 '21

a good high speed train from east to west, which would be a little under 5000 km, which would take about 20 hours from Québec to Vancouver.

That's a pipe dream, straight up. It would cost way way way too much to build and operate (consider winter maintenance for example), and with flying still being faster, hardly anyone would use it. That sort of money would be better spent investing in metropolitan public transport.

if the flight takes 3 hours, your actual travel time (including getting to the airport, checking in, waiting for your luggage, …) would probably be closer to 6 hours

That's true, though with a train you still need to arrive at the station early and check in (at least in Canada). Keep in mind long-distance trains run like every two days here.

btw: I didn’t mean to call you out

No problem at all

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u/RandomName01 Oct 14 '21

That's a pipe dream, straight up. It would cost way way way too much to build and operate (consider winter maintenance for example), and with flying still being faster, hardly anyone would use it.

I mean, maybe. And if flying at a cost where it’s carbon neutral wins out over train, fine by me.

That sort of money would be better spent investing in metropolitan public transport.

Kind of a false dichotomy, but sure. Apparently your bike friendliness could be a lot better, and your focus (as a country I mean, not yours personally lol) is still way too much on cars. Improving that might be more productive and a better use of means.

That's true, though with a train you still need to arrive at the station early and check in (at least in Canada).

Huh, you can just get on in Europe, assuming you have a ticket.

Either way, thanks for your perspective. You seem like a nice person.

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u/devilbunny Oct 14 '21

Very dependent on origin and destination airports. And exactly where you're headed. My wife goes to visit her parents about every six weeks. Our houses are about fifteen minutes away from the airport on either end, and it's a nonstop flight. If she's there thirty minutes before the flight, she'll make it with ease (Precheck and carryon-only luggage). Just over two hours total travel time from door to door. Vs. almost seven by car, and infinite by train (it doesn't go there).

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u/Jadedraven1366 Oct 15 '21

I took a train from NY (Upstate) to AZ and it took like 56 hours excluding an 11 hour layover in Chicago & stops. I'd rather do that then fly but damn our trains are slow!

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u/nyanlol Oct 14 '21

with respect i heavily dislike the idea of planes becoming massively expensive. air travel should not be the sole privilege of the ultra rich.

im not a fan of functionally losing the ability to leave north america forever

and that would even worse if youre Australian lol

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u/RandomName01 Oct 14 '21

It is incredibly bad for the planet, so it would be fantastic if the prices were high enough to not offload the external costs onto the planet. This would create extra incentives to create cleaner and more sustainable airplanes, or other efficient long distance alternatives.

Your ability to leave America won’t mean much if we destroy the planet to realise it.

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u/nyanlol Oct 14 '21

which the ultra rich wont care about.

"lol ok it costs 3000 instead of 1000 thats fine by me see ya plebes"

I want to save the planet too but the proposed solutions never seem to affect the upper classes. its only normal people that would have to sacrifice things and that pisses me off

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u/RandomName01 Oct 14 '21

So? It would massively reduce air traffic, and thus reduce pollution by a lot.

Also, for clarity, I’m also in favour of taxing the rich a lot more.

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u/Gusdai Oct 14 '21

Of course you don't mean it like that, but can you see how your argument is basically "I don't want just the rich to be able to afford to destroy the planet: I want even the poor to be able to afford too!".

Short of the government deciding who can fly, the only way to make people fly less is to make it less affordable. Which also makes sense when it means making people pay for the damage (pollution) they cause.

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u/marto_k Oct 14 '21

Well… that’s normal. The middle class in North America pollutes a lot… any meaningful reform will come at their expense .

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u/phyrros Oct 14 '21

That is the wrong way to look at it: air travel is already massively expensive, it is just that society and poor people pay most of that bill.

Sooner or later we should stop subsidizing ticket prices. That's all there is

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u/Ran4 Oct 14 '21

air travel should not be the sole privilege of the ultra rich.

Think about it from this perspective instead: is it better to literally destroy the planet for everyone instead?

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u/oiseauvert989 Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

They often travel with passengers at up to 350km/h (200mph) yes. That's why they outcompete short haul flights as well as long drives.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '21 edited 27d ago

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u/americainperdu Oct 14 '21

Taking the train from Amsterdam to Paris is like this, it would probably take double the time getting to + thru the airports, by train it’s a breeze.

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u/oiseauvert989 Oct 14 '21

Sure it just depends on what you call medium. Personally I will take the train even if it takes longer because I can work on it. If traveling with the whole family then night train can be a good deal as we can take an entire cabin. Would rather do that with a baby than mess around with airports.

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u/notanalarmist Oct 14 '21

The TGV is amazing! The last time we were in France, going from Lyon to Paris, the train posted 306kph.

When we travel to France, (which is quite often as all my family is there) we tend to leave the rental car in a smaller city and take the train into Paris. So much easier for our mental health.

side note: on the map with the times for automobile travel, they note that the times do not take into account volume of traffic. There is always traffic to take into consideration in France!

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u/nyanlol Oct 14 '21

im guessing thats why Strasburg is still 3 hours longer by car? google says thats 300 miles which shouldnt take that long on an interstate....i mean if you go 60 the whole way but no one goes that slow on an interstate lol

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u/notanalarmist Oct 14 '21

Probably.

It once took us 3 hours to get from the Paris airport (Charles de Gaulle) to the junction of the A10 and A6 (roughly 50k or 30ish miles) because of traffic. Our final destination was Issoire (460 ish km). The whole trip took us 6 hours.

That was the year we decided we would take the train for future trips because 6 hours on the road after flying in from Canada, severely jet lagged is NOT fun. When we realized you could catch a train from the airport to go directly to a number of cities in France, we chose to do that when we went to Lille. It took about an hour. It was brilliant.

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u/ThePhysicistIsIn Oct 14 '21

TGV - High Speed Trains - do. They have them in Western Europe and China. America, not so much.

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u/The_Crack_Whore Oct 14 '21

Don't forget about Japan.

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u/ThePhysicistIsIn Oct 14 '21

Of course. I wanted to keep it short is all.

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u/ichbineinschweinhund Oct 14 '21

Yes. We definitely screwed up in not developing our rail system and now it's just not feasible due to corruption. Google CA bullet train for proof.

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u/Joe_Jeep Oct 14 '21

That's just untrue. It's just as feasible as ever but it'll take time and Money to build, just like Europe Japan's and China's did. and the sooner we start the better.

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u/Gusdai Oct 14 '21

You're basically saying that if money is not an issue, it's as feasible today as it is yesterday.

But since money is very much an issue (and needed for many other things, including other environment-friendly policies), it is not as feasible today.

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u/the_bing_bong_theory Oct 14 '21

I don't really think corruption is singly to blame but I'm not saying it's not there. The problem with the Acela is that the corridor it runs in is so densely populated it would be extremely difficult to just plop down new rail lines as a lot of people live on top of where the tracks would be.

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u/Joe_Jeep Oct 14 '21

Yep sadly it would require some displacement. Acela's best segments are largely due to smart railroad companies in the 1800s realigning their rails while it was still mostly farmland

The sprawl of the post-war years coated the state's in suburbia(which now still largely just serves to commute into cities) and focused on cars and highways at the expense of all else.... in no small part as a racist effort.

Just look into how highways were built directly through minority areas, some in the south even swerving through them intentionally when better, cheaper routes existed. And northern areas were no saints

Hell you still see people oppose transit sometimes with arguments like "it'll bring "crime" to our area", when they're not just being outwardly and openly racist about it

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u/hatramroany Oct 14 '21

We have one!

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u/eric2332 OC: 1 Oct 14 '21

Not really. Acela's average speed is 113km/h between Boston and Washington. Barely faster than driving.

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u/the_bing_bong_theory Oct 14 '21

Yup. Technically it tops out at 150 but only on small parts of the route as most of the infrastructure is so old it's not built around trains being able to go that fast.

'MURICA

There's also Brightline in Florida which will be able to do 125 from Palm Beach to Orlando once construction is finished on the route.

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u/unteer Oct 14 '21

no... we don't...

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u/hatramroany Oct 14 '21

Acela's 35 miles of track where it goes 150mph begs to differ.

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u/Deinococcaceae Oct 14 '21

The TGV averages that over the journey, and can get up to 200mph. Not really comparable to the Acela hitting 150 for like 15 minutes of a 6 1/2 hour trip from Washington to Boston.

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u/Supernova-remnant Oct 14 '21

320 km/h max speed with passenger. Over 500 km/h during tests aiming at beating the record (basically an everlasting battle between French, Japanese, and German enginneers)

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u/_Abiogenesis Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

Even faster than that, the French TGV speed record is 574.8km/h (=357.2 mph). Nearly 600kmh ... on rails !

Passenger transportation speed limits comes down to regulation though so it's "only" 320km/h (=200mph), say to go from Paris to Bordeaux. For regular operating use.

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u/HungInSarfLondon Oct 14 '21

TGV can go 357.2 mph! That was for a record attempt though. Regular services can hit 200mph in bursts.

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u/Khyta Oct 14 '21

Yes the TGV goes fast. Needs long, straight rails tho to achieve 300km/h+ speeds

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u/Saetia_V_Neck Oct 14 '21

In the rest of the developed world they do. IIRC, that Paris to Marseille was the fastest route in the world for a long time until China built the Shanghai Maglev is still the fastest long distance line in the world.

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u/aimgorge Oct 14 '21

That's an average. On this line they actually run at 300kmh and even 320kmh on a small part

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u/bakonydraco OC: 4 Oct 14 '21

This is the first post on /r/dataisbeautiful that truly is a beautiful presentation of data that I've seen in a long time.

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u/miaumee Oct 14 '21

We need something better than TGV: TGGV.

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u/Prestigious-Rate-150 Oct 14 '21

They plan build a new tgv line in the next five years between Bordeaux and Toulouse to make it only 3h away from paris

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u/Prestigious-Rate-150 Oct 14 '21

And another one from Bordeaux to the southwest/spain

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u/AdmiralPoopbutt Oct 14 '21

Is that a realistic timetable? It would take 25 years to do that in my country.

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u/Timeeeeey Oct 14 '21

Yes, I think they finally decided to put down the money, once it starts construction it shouldnt take too long(5-10 years)

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u/k1ck4ss Oct 14 '21

So, you talking about Germany, right? Nichts für ungut :-/

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u/oiseauvert989 Oct 14 '21

It's true. There is no talk of connecting Toulouse to the Mediterranean though. That would really complete the loop and make travel between Lyon and Toulouse or Marseille and Bordeaux a reality.

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u/Whooshless Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

Until the lines from Nice to Lyon are fast, people will continue to fly EasyJet to reach the Mediterranean. Most don't actually care about their carbon footprint when you give them a “choice” of spending twice as much to take 5x the time.

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u/oiseauvert989 Oct 14 '21

Not really. I go Lyon to Nice on the train I work the whole time. Lost hours = 0.

Lost hours flying = 4 in total

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u/tommangan7 Oct 14 '21

Yo, these are great. Nice looking, clear and interesting, what a rarity for the sub.

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u/oiseauvert989 Oct 14 '21

Fully agree. It's a really interesting comparison. I have done some of these routes by train + bike.

A lot of the pink areas (especially in Normandy) could definitely turn blue with a few upgrades. Not even a new high speed line but just an upgrade to the existing one so it does 200km/h.

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u/ImprovedPersonality Oct 14 '21

And without pointless animations.

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u/NorthVilla Oct 14 '21

Any time some lovely data is covered up by it being behind a STUPID fucking gif, I flip my shit.

No way to pause, no way to compare. Horrible. Absolutely horrible. /R/dataisugly

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u/danielleiellle Oct 14 '21

The only thing that would make this a prime example is if OP shared code.

/u/gmilloue - I study scientists for a living. I can’t tell you how many brilliant people I talk to who are doing amazing things who cite their #1 reason for not sharing code as “because I don’t think my code is good.” Classic impostor syndrome, but you’ve done something nobody has done quite as elegantly. Nobody is born with unicorn coding skills. Most code you see out in the wild has already been through peer review and feedback and revisions and is built off of patterns that others have written.

If it’s dumb and it works, then it’s not dumb, it’s a functional version 1. Releasing into the wild means others can take advantage and possibly improve the code for reuse. No pressure, but you’re in good company!

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u/gmilloue OC: 3 Oct 14 '21

I made this maps using a self-written Python script. I got the train data from the Navitia.io API and the bike and car data using the OSRM API.

Once I collected the data, I plotted the result using Python Matplotlib functions.

My script is still too messy to be shared (I'm not a programmer) but I can answer specific questions.

My inspiration: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/a6oc78/isochrone\_map\_travel\_time\_from\_paris\_1882/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3

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u/Podgey Oct 14 '21

This is really nice, would love to see the code when it's cleaned up, or even in its dirty format!

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u/DejectedUnicorn Oct 14 '21

What colormaps or style is the pastel colored maps

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u/ewill2001 Oct 14 '21

I too love this colour pallet.

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u/enBiter Oct 14 '21

Hi! I would love to(try to) do same thing but for Czech Republic using R. Your map is a great inspiration! Also, if you did that then you are a programmer :) consider sharing your code!

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u/eddycovariance Oct 14 '21

I love the idea. Let’s build an r-package for that. With OSM and ggplot it shouldn’t be too much work. I will start tomorrow

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u/Efficient-Umpire9784 Oct 14 '21

Can you please do this for Ireland, it is commonly believed here that we have terrible public transportation and it would be great to show the proof.

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u/gitsnshiggles1 Oct 14 '21

This map is fascinating. I would love to see the same thing for the UK since the quality of train services can really change depending on where you are in the country. Excellent work!

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u/AdmiralPoopbutt Oct 14 '21

Top Gear's writer room has entered the chat

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u/makingbutter Oct 14 '21

What do you know? Another photo finish!

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u/superstrijder15 Oct 14 '21

I would also like to see the benelux included in this map (because I live in it, and because TGV goes until Amsterdam), and to see a similar map with Germany and the distance to Berlin. Anyway this map really shows the power of high speed long-distance rail!

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u/WutIsAllThisRacket Oct 14 '21

The german map would dissapoint by comparison. Most ICE stop in every sort of big city along they way. The TGV are all super Paris oriented, they stop almost nowhere in between Paris and the end of the line. ICE and TGV trains are comparable specs, but the French network is way better. German 300+ km/h capable trains barely go 160-220 on most routes, the French ones actually do ride mostly at the speed they were designed for.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '21

Agree, but this also means that it would look much worse for France if it was not about Paris, but any other city. The train network is awesome if you travel from or to Paris, but not so great for most other connections, because France is so strongly centred around Paris. France is and has been a more centralised state, while Germany is and has been more federally organised, so this is also kind of visible in the train networks.

But yes, in general, the German train network has a lot of problems and the number of stops of ICEs is one of them. Maybe the next government will have a better plan of how to make the train network more efficient and faster.

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u/MedicalHoliday Oct 14 '21

And don't the french have seperate highspeed tracks for the TGVs?

So the TGVs dont have to share the tracks with low speed trains so they can't get in the way.

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u/Mireldorn Oct 14 '21

They are only better in an over-centralised system. If France wasn't as Paris oriented as this map, I thing would be a different. If you would compare accessibility of the country unbiased from it's capital, the German railway system wouldn't look so bad at all. Although it has some holes as well, like the missing east-west connection between Mannheim/Nürnberg/(Prague) ..

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u/verfmeer Oct 14 '21

If they build that A6 Line, it should follow the A6 all the way to Saarbrücken and connect to the French high speed rail network.

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u/Mireldorn Oct 14 '21

Agreed, they should connect Straßburg to Prague basically.

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u/verfmeer Oct 14 '21

Connecting it to Strassbourg would not help the Paris-Frankfurt connection very much, since it is too far south for that. So I would aim for a more northern connection. Although it might be enough if the Frankfurt-Offenburg line gets further upgrades.

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u/LordMangudai Oct 14 '21

That is a good thing though. The French system is great for getting to and from Paris, but if you want to go Marseille-Bordeaux by train for example it's a lot slower and more complicated. Germany has a genuine integrated network and not just a bunch of spokes leading out from a single central location.

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u/seszett Oct 14 '21

Germany doesn't have central mountains though. There's exactly one East-West passage in France in the South (through Toulouse) and the people there are hostile to the building of the fast train line for some reason. It's still being built but it's slow.

Out of this particular way, it almost always makes sense to go through Paris in France for geographical and geological reasons, while Germany with it's easy terrain and non-central capital obviously needs and can have a better network.

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u/WutIsAllThisRacket Oct 14 '21

Just have a look at the top speeds on this map to see what I mean: https://www.openrailwaymap.org/

The Spain map might also be interesting tho

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u/Sean951 Oct 14 '21

I'd love to see it done for US states, so I can look at how bad it is and be even more jealous of countries with functional passenger rail networks.

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u/Whooshless Oct 14 '21

Italy's is pretty easy to imagine. Smooth gradient for cars, solid green for trains.

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u/DaveyBoyXXZ Oct 14 '21

Hands down one of the best things I've seen on this sub.

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u/Corindon Oct 14 '21

A GIS oriented researcher I can say that it is very nice looking map. I like the high resolution. Did you pay for the nativia service or did you wait several month to collect the dataset ?

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u/gmilloue OC: 3 Oct 14 '21

Thank you!! The French railway company allows 5000 requests per day for free, which is approximately the number of train stations in France, so I actually could get all the train data within 1 day.

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u/Corindon Oct 14 '21

Ok, great to know. I have many other questions haha. Don't feel compelled to answer. For the bike part ? you had to find the shortest way between destinations and train station. You used osrm to do that ? What destinations do you use ? city centers or a grid of longitude and latitude ?

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u/gmilloue OC: 3 Oct 14 '21

Yes, I used OSRM for the bike part. I used to take a grid of longitude and latitude, which was not ideal because some points are not reachable, even by car or bike. Now, I use QGIS to extract road nodes from the national road network. Then, I reduce the number of nodes with an algorithm so that 2 neighbour points can't be too close to eachother.

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u/Torugu Oct 14 '21

Now do the same for just about any other city (i.e. not Paris) and you'll reveal the problem with trains in France.

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u/gmilloue OC: 3 Oct 14 '21

Not only with trains, but yes, I agree haha

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u/kempez2 Oct 14 '21

Also a problem in UK, we have a system of radial mainlines from London that really aren't bad (not as good as TGV though), but crossing between them is awful.

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u/Joe_Jeep Oct 14 '21

It's a bit of a universal problem with major cities. New York is one of the few in the state's well served by commuter rail, but if you want to travel perpendicular to the NYC 'axis' good luck.

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u/SuperSMT OC: 1 Oct 14 '21

Most US cities solve this disparity by just having terrible transit in any direction!

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u/AnAngryBanker Oct 14 '21

That raises another interesting question, would doing the same calculations for a number of other cities and combining them all in some way lead to any more interesting insights about the whole network? And how could you combine them, mean travel time for each point from each starting point maybe?

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u/kaukaukau Oct 14 '21

Yes, for each city you could build an index "From here to anywhere". This index would be a (weighted) average of the travel time to a selection of French city. This index could be represented as an altitude, let's see if it matches the mountains!

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u/Don138 Oct 14 '21

The other issue is the price. My girlfriend and I spent a summer there and hearing great things about the transit wanted to take the TGV everywhere, until we saw the prices.

It was significantly cheaper to rent a car as soon as the Paris part of our trip was over.

Plus, those times must be based on the speed limit and traffic because we got to Marseille in more like 6hrs, doing ~80-90mph. Everyone seems to stick exactly to the speed limit which opened the left lane to cruise in. (The highway speed limit where we are is 70-75mph and honestly you would be a danger doing that so 80/85 is the standard).

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u/Adamsoski Oct 15 '21

Yes the estimation is based on not breaking the law to the extent that you are driving what is judged to be dangerously fast. And no, most people don't drive dangerously fast like you apparently chose to do.

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u/spaceangelbearcat666 Oct 14 '21

thought i was looking at a particularly well done r/MapPorn post. these are really nice and very interesting. can i ask about your methods?

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u/Prestigious-Rate-150 Oct 14 '21

Faster train Paris Bordeaux are actually 2h07

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u/speedycat2014 Oct 14 '21

Traveling from Paris by train today, and more this week. So timely, love it.

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u/Xeno_Lithic Oct 14 '21

I'm jealous, I've always wanted to see the French countryside! Enjoy your trips

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u/Mcchew Oct 14 '21

The TGV (HSR) is a great way to get around, but not a great way to see the countryside as you blow past at 250+ km/hr. You might want to check out some slower trains if the views are important, as you can also stop in smaller towns the TGV will bypass.

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u/untipoquenojuega Oct 14 '21

I wish the US had reliable public transit, or really any kind of public transit at all :(

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u/Confetticandi Oct 14 '21

The US does have it in major cities like New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston…

You don’t have to own a car if you live in the city there. I haven’t needed to. But way more people in the US live in other parts of the country.

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u/be_like_bill Oct 14 '21

I wouldn't call SF public transport as reliable, it's probably just above average. Also, the moment you want to step outside the SF city boundaries to get to the greater bay area, it's terrible unless you live within walking distance of Bart.

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u/Confetticandi Oct 14 '21

I agree. Having lived in Chicago, there’s no comparison. Chicago has a really great commuter rail system to all the outlying suburbs that’s clean and safe. Still, I don’t need my car to get around here in SF. I keep it in storage in the East Bay suburbs.

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u/be_like_bill Oct 14 '21

Lol yeah, fair enough. SF proper definitely is navigable without a car.

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u/Baby_Rhino Oct 14 '21

This is some seriously quality OC. Thanks OP!

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u/iiiinthecomputer Oct 14 '21

Now that's what I come to this sub for, not currently-fashionable-topic bar graphs.

Absolutely amazing work.

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u/RedditAcc-92975 Oct 14 '21

No way. an actually beautiful and meaningful visualization.

post into r/mapporn as well

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u/Prestigious-Rate-150 Oct 14 '21

And for a price idea, it's actually super cheap you can often find tickets for less than 20€ if you book them early enough

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u/Dilinn Oct 14 '21

Currently in Paris, you can quite literally haul ass on an electric assisted bicycle (ie Lime). My walk back to Airbnb was over 40 minutes estimated. On a bike and going too fast for my own safety I did it in just under 13 minutes.

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u/devilbunny Oct 14 '21

Unless you're doing a lot of hills, it's pretty easy to maintain 3x speed on bike as on foot even without electric assist.

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u/133DK Oct 14 '21

Really cool maps, how did you make them and where did you get the data?

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u/ElmerMalmesbury Oct 14 '21

Nice maps. I suppose you have also seen the 1882 version?

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u/Wwwweeeeeeee Oct 14 '21

I LOVE taking the TGV from Cannes to Paris. It's just under 6 hours, seated next to a huge window in a quiet car, rarely packed. I can literally arrive 3 minutes before the train arrives & departs. LOVELY scenic views of the Med, vineyards, cows! Sheep!

I get to step off the train for a moment at a few stops for fresh air or to walk the dog - who's allowed on the train of course. I have wifi, don't get charged for having a big bag, I can wander around the train, easily use the restroom, buy a sandwich or a coffee or happily eat my own snack & enjoy my own bottle of water or juice. We have a choice of which car, if we want a nice quiet one, on the lower or the upper deck.

Walk straight off the train to an Uber, am at my flat in 15 minutes.

As opposed to flying.... 30+ minutes to get to the airport to arrive at least an hour before my flight. Wait in line, get my bags searched, get patted down, get herded into more lines. Wait some more. Get shoved into a tiny seat, and 1.5 hours later I get into the airport in Paris. It's then either another 1.5 hours by public transport into the main train station, then another metro to get to my flat. Or I could get an Uber from the airport for €50, which will still take about an hour, depending on traffic. And I can't take my dog.

Hands down, the train wins it for me every single time. Door to door, smack into the heart of Paris within 6 hours is perfect. SO much easier than flying or driving.

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u/Longjumping_Fee_3459 Oct 14 '21

Now do this from the standpoint of Lyon and Bourdeaux. I'm curious what the outcome will be but suspect it will show much longer required times to go from east to west and vice versa. Everything in France is built with Paris in mind as the epicenter but it is in fact in the upper north of France.

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u/ellermg Oct 14 '21

Excuse me why mix train and bikes?

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u/gmilloue OC: 3 Oct 14 '21

Considering walking would have led to crazy travel durations. Good public transport data is not that easy to get and not all places are reachable using public transport. I thought that biking would be a good compromise.

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u/en0on Oct 14 '21

I think bike is just there to reflect short distances from the train station to other nearby places but I might be wrong.

Also it may be more interesting to fuse train with buses/subway + walk

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u/Orangesilk Oct 14 '21

Traveling through train + bike is a very common way to roadtrip in France

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u/ComprehensiveDurian8 Oct 14 '21

It’s the fastest way to get to the train station if you don’t have a car

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u/amedeemarko Oct 14 '21

strongtowns

deathtostroads

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u/Nabaatii Oct 14 '21

Like many said, what a beautiful data visualization. Can be a good visualization of how good/reliable the public transport is in any given country.

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u/RagePandazXD Oct 14 '21

Ok so this is actually really cool

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u/Historical_Macaron25 Oct 14 '21

Great visualization. Sadly, the first two maps are not very comprehensible for colorblind people :(. The 11-12 hour and 3-4 hour color shades look almost the same - I was able to make sense of them with the 3rd map though, so that's great.

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u/612marion Oct 14 '21

I live in the center . Where everything is 8h without a car

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u/totorrro Oct 14 '21

I vacationed in France once, train from Paris to Montpellier was like 2 or 3 hours of sitting in a comfy seat next to my girlfriend and playing switch games. Its hard to articulate how frustrating it is that our train system in the US is so far behind the times. If more Americans got even a taste of how convenient and nice train transport is in other developed countries there would be an uproar.

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u/KotR56 Oct 14 '21

From Paris to Toulouse by car in 7 hours...

Not in my car :(

From Paris to Lille in 2.5 hours ?

You are lucky if you passed CDG in that time.

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u/Reiep Oct 14 '21

It's definitely in the middle of the night. During a work day Orléans to anywhere in the center of Paris is close to 3 hours by car.

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u/ThePr1d3 Oct 14 '21

Once I did Paris Brest in 3h40

Needless to say we were driving fast

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u/lhomme21 Oct 14 '21

The data is indeed really beautiful for a change .

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u/GordonFreemanK Oct 14 '21

TIL it's faster to get from Paris to the peak of the Mont-Blanc by train+bike than by car. TBF I believe it. Carrying the car up those last few kms is bound to be a pain.

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u/Aujax92 Oct 14 '21

Makes sense

You can reach urban areas very quickly with public transportation but car is much faster for immediate rural areas.

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u/selfsearched Oct 14 '21

This is incredible, as a transit lover I wish we could have maps like this for every country!

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u/Zifnab_palmesano Oct 14 '21

Awesome, I love it! Now do other countries, please!

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u/yimia Oct 14 '21

By the way the coloration is impressive. Rare to see a map this beautiful as well as comprehensive

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u/bloodknights Oct 14 '21

Beat OC I've seen on here in a while, good job OP

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u/PsychoGenesis12 Oct 14 '21

This is actually beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

I'd assume where I live, the US, the public transport would be very limited and frankly pretty crappy compared to Europe, especially trains. Car would be the only way to go in most places in the US, unless you go on plane, but that'd be a bit on the expensive side. Idk about bike since we don't have many bike roads.

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u/Anafabula Oct 15 '21

One of the most soothing color scheme I've seen in visualized data.

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u/YouKnowTheRules123 Oct 15 '21

Wow, this actually is beautiful.

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u/Sayasam OC: 1 Oct 14 '21

🇫🇷 FRANCE BAISE OUAIS ! 🇫🇷

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u/ThePr1d3 Oct 14 '21

LA RÉPUBLIQUE NOUS APPELLE

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u/diddlerofkiddlers Oct 14 '21

France does not care for your American attempt at French patriotism

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u/TrickBox_ Oct 14 '21

Dude seems french, or at least he talks the language

Donc, France baise ouais que ça te plaise ou non

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u/lordk3k123 Oct 14 '21

Crossing your country in under 12 hours always felt weird to me

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u/Mireldorn Oct 14 '21

Well, Germany may be crossed in under 3 hours from France to Czech Republic on the A6 I'd say, at least once the construction sites are gone.. Also, depends on the car, as there are many parts without speed limits..

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u/ThePr1d3 Oct 14 '21

Me too. In 5 hours I can be in 4 or 5 different countries

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u/darthsenior Oct 14 '21

Right? They are so small o_o

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u/lordk3k123 Oct 14 '21

Yeah.. but it shouldn't be a problem for the French as they are in the Schengen zone and don't need a visa to travel. But imagine living in a small country and having to carry passport and visa just to travel for a day or two.. or just seeing the ocean.

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u/Adamsoski Oct 15 '21

Small, but with a lot more cultural variation per mile traveled.

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u/hatefulemperor Oct 14 '21

Please include French New Guinea.

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u/xStandTheMoviex Oct 14 '21

American here: Is train travel just super common in European nations? In America, you'll only really ever see regular train travel in Chicago and New York as far as I'm aware. Maybe it's just due to the size of the country, but I always wish America had more passenger train travel

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u/Joe_Jeep Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

The size is a part of it but regionally there's no real excuse it's not better.

Not criticizing you, but you see a lot of people opposed to trains say it so I'm just gonna run through the argument real quick.

The whole size argument is basically just saying A San Francisco-NYC train would be stupid, and most who say that then act like that also means Atlanta>Orlando or Chicago>St Louis shouldn't be built either.

Which, frankly, is utterly ridiculous. It's like saying 10 miles is too far to walk for groceries as a reason not to have sidewalks to a store, even though there's residential areas directly adjacent to it(this is a real example from plenty of US towns).

Hell even the "ridiculous" routes like east coast-west coast could, in a good HSR system, be under 15 hours. A bit long for sure, but as a night train a good number would likely take it

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u/vanwold Oct 14 '21

I wish we had a comprehensive train system, locally, regionally, and nationally. I live 40 minutes from work in SE Michigan - I work in Detroit. I would LOVE to be able to just catch a train to work/school everyday instead of fighting speeding, aggressive, drivers and traffic headaches. I could get so much done on my commute if I didn’t have to drive! But the communities in this region refuse to work together and the northern suburbs fight every proposal for a regionally integrated public transportation system.

I am taking the train to Chicago in December but the offerings were slim and I’m nervous we’ll end up stuck on the train because of my friend’s past experiences getting stuck for 8 hours on Amtrak, on the same route.

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u/Joe_Jeep Oct 14 '21

Exactly. I live in jersey so we're fortunate to have a functional commuter rail network. It could be a lot better, for sure(especially for traveling within the state without going nearly to new york to transfer), but it shows there's nothing specific preventing local rail networks in the US.

Now Yes, NJ is the most densely populated state in the US, but there's tons of regions of states that are dense enough for their own systems.

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u/Major2Minor Oct 14 '21

Canadian here: Trains are those long things that haul oil, right?

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u/Melon_Cooler Oct 14 '21

Also those long things that haul people but behind the longer and slower ones that haul oil.

God I hate this country's rail, especially when Windsor - Québec City is such a viable corridor for quality rail service.

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u/ISAIDPEWPEW OC: 1 Oct 14 '21

Yeah it's incredibly common throughout Europe. Only small small towns don't have a train station, but then they have bus services to the nearest train station at the worst

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u/lokfuhrer_ Oct 14 '21

Rail travel is common yes, however as I understand it in France, unless you're close to a TGV-served station, the rail network isn't served all that well. They really have gone all in on the high speed part of their network.

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u/Some_Koala Oct 14 '21

It is more complicated than that. Many TER (slower train) lines are pretty good to get you from a medium city to the closest big city.

If you want to go from big city to big city, you basically have to go through Paris (with a few exceptions).

There are also many different kind of slower train, with speed ranging between 60 and 200 km/h.

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u/Malorn44 Oct 14 '21

American here who has traveled abroad a fair number of times. Yep, and not just Europe. Much of the world has great transit systems.

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u/W1D0WM4K3R Oct 14 '21

Man, it took me ten hours just to get to neighbouring province in my country.

Maybe I'll visit France for a week and see all the sights lol

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u/ShamelessKinkySub Oct 14 '21

Would love to see one of these for an average day in NYC